What can be learned from the now notorious Reddit rape thread? Most of the commenters beneath Megan Carpentier’s CiF article think the answer is nothing – the apparent confessions of rapists and abusers are unverifiable, they (quite rightly) say. Any analysis of their content must be suspect. The conclusions Carpentier draws are built on sand.
Well, I disagree.
As I said in a comment here , I believe most of the Reddit admissions are probably genuine. In browsing them, countless thousands of readers were exposed to the anecdotes about rape that tally strongly with at least 30 years of research into criminology and forensic psychology. Even if every post were pure fiction, the stories they tell are astonishingly true to life.
Despite hundreds of posts of condemnation, any doubts I had about the value of the Reddit thread, and indeed the value in linking to it, evaporated when I read just one post from the commenter gherkingirl. Over many years she has written and blogged with insight, compassion and enormous courage, about her experience as a rape survivor and her own pursuit of justice. In this comment she described her reaction to perhaps the most harrowing and disturbing of all the confessions, which she said could just as easily have been written by the man who first raped her.
“I came away finally seeing that it wasn’t something we victims had done. It wasn’t our hemlines or our flirtatiousness or taking a cab or having another chardonnay. It was because a certain type of man wants to rape.”
She expanded upon the point movingly and eloquently on her own blog:
“For years I’ve known deep down that it wasn’t my fault I was raped. It wasn’t what I was wearing or what I’d been doing, but I’ve always ultimately felt that there is something inside me that makes this violence happen to me. Like a spark on a flint in certain lights, there is something that surfaces and is why I’ve had so many frightening overwhelming experiences with men and been raped twice. I don’t know what it is. I can’t put my finger on it and it’s too painful to ask other people what it might be. But it would explain why men treat me so aggressively while being nothing like it with other women. But reading this comment, for the first time since I was raped, it occurred to me that these assaults aren’t something to do with me. They’re something to do with the type of man who thinks and acts like this.”
One of the most controversial aspects to the rape debate is the attribution of responsibility. We hear it in every discussion on rape – some variation on “of course the rapist is entirely to blame, but women must surely take some responsibility for the consequences of their behaviour.” We see this in the traditional crime prevention advice, issued both through formal channels and bar-room punditry, that focuses on the potential victim and what (usually) she can do to keep herself safe – not walking alone through dark and isolated places; ensuring her drink isn’t spiked; not becoming insensibly intoxicated; or - at its most notoriously crass - “avoid dressing like sluts.” We even saw this applied to children, by a vicar no less, on BBC Question Time in the aftermath of the Rochdale grooming case. “They go out dressed as if they are looking for that sort of issue to take place”
The feminist lexicon describes this as ‘victim-blaming.’ I don’t think that term is helpful. The people issuing these opinions don’t intend to blame the victim, and I’m sure it doesn’t feel like that as they say the words. Consequently they become defensive and angry when it is suggested that they’ve done it. A better phrase would be something like ‘responsibility-shifting.’ These comments shift at least some of the responsibility for preventing the crime from the perpetrator to the victim. Repeated endlessly, as a refrain of popular wisdom and so-called common sense, they inevitably leave many rape victims thinking there must have been something they could have done to have prevented it happening.
The message is damaging to survivors, but perhaps more importantly, it is downright false. The Reddit thread found none of the respondents talking of their victims flaunting their sexuality with miniskirts and boob-tubes, dancing naked on pool tables or shamelessly prick-teasing their attackers according to stereotype. On the contrary, the serial rapist referred to above explained how he selected his victims meticulously by their shy and insecure personality-type, and planned his attacks down to the finest detail of his preferred modus operandi. Others described taking advantage of girls in their sleep, or riding roughshod over the consent limits of their girlfriends or dates. Every one described himself as being in control of his actions, making a conscious decision to rape. There was nothing any of their victims could have been reasonably expected to do that would have prevented the attacks occurring.
The other consequence of shifting responsibility is to portray sexual assault as an inevitability, a fact of nature. Go out without your umbrella and you might get caught in a rain shower, go out in a miniskirt and you might get caught in a rape. There is I think a serious risk that this serves to normalise rape in the minds of rapists. Rather than thinking sexual assault being something done by aberrant, cruel, destructive individuals, it is something done to careless or helpless victims. Of course some rapists with sociopathic tendencies will be indifferent to such concerns, but the Reddit posts reveal others who were racked by indecision, guilt and uncertainty. It might only take such a slight cognitive twist to make some potential rapists think better of their intentions.
There are many other lessons that could be learned from the Reddit thread and subsequent discussion, but this one alone is enough to justify the initial thread, and the articles on CIF and elsewhere. I think Megan Carpentier was wrong to say that the people who need to be educated about rape are our men and boys. It goes deeper than that. It is society – men, women, boys, girls and the intangible strands of our culture that still need to be educated, and if it could learn one lesson it is that responsibility for rapes lies foursquare with rapists, and nowhere else.
I think Megan Carpentier was wrong to say that the people who need to be educated about rape are our men and boys. It goes deeper than that. It is society – men, women, boys, girls and the intangible strands of our culture that still need to be educated, and if it could learn one lesson it is that responsibility for rapes lies foursquare with rapists, and nowhere else.
Basically.
I didn’t read through all of the posting on reddit but it seemed like the conversation went from rape to men raping women. It doesn’t surprise me that Megan thinks educating men and boys will end rape. It’s a very strong and common sentiment. The idea that if boys and men stopped raping women then that would fix everything.
Well if men did stop raping women (and other men) that would fix the problem,
Even if that did stop all rape (which it certainly doesn’t) it might help if people would distinguish the rapists from the men and boys rather than lumping all together in some vague smokescreen.
Well, thank you for so explicitly saying that me being raped by a woman is not a problem.
@Danny
Re. Your wish that people would distinguish the rapists from the men and boys.
How can people achieve this? Rapists don’t carry a mark, very often they are not the monstrous loners who spend their nights sitting in parks on the off chance a woman risks it, but are the people who live right alongside. If women and girls are to believe the hype that they must be perpetually on their guard, which is the logical result of them being called reckless if they aren’t, then they must regard every man as a potential threat. I would suggest it is quite unfair of you to lay yet another responsibility at their door to treat men as benign until proven otherwise.
So it’s unfair to not treat men in worst faith because the rapists among us don’t carrying neon signs to distinguish themselves?
Sarah the difference is what is being done based on that suspicion.
Here goes. A woman is walking down the street alone one night and a guy is coming from the opposite direction. What goes through her head?
Expectation 1: “I don’t know what that guy might do.”
Expectation 2: “Unless he goes out of his way to prove otherwise, he’s a threat.”
So I reject your suggestion on the grounds that I’m not saying men should be treated as benign until proven otherwise. I’m saying it’s not right to treat men as guilty until proven innocent based on the actions of a small portion of us.
Perhaps I’m being naive, but I think getting rid of the double standard would do a lot to cut down on some of the supposed consent confusion. Discussions like the thread underneath the Carpentier thread on Cif frequently contain complaints/anecdotes from men claiming that women will say “no” but then complain when the man stops and they cite the popularity of crap like “50 Shades of Grey” as evidence that women enjoy being sexually dominated.
Well, what the hell do we expect when women have been told for centuries that they’re not supposed to enjoy something that can be so very pleasant? What psychological work-around do we think women are going to come up with that enables them to admit to sexual pleasure while still thinking of themselves as “good” girls?
Granted, things are certainly much better than they ever used to be, but the double standard is still very much alive and women are still being shamed if they are brazen in flaunting their sexuality or their enjoyment of sex.
What truly perplexes and upsets me about the Carpentier thread and other similar discussions, is the sheer force of the knee-jerk defensiveness of so many men. It was eminently clear that Carpentier wasn’t calling all men rapists or even claiming that all men are potential rapists — so why were so many men pretending that she had?
I agree with your post about the double standard, I think many of the comments by men on that thread crossed the line and showed there is still much work to be done with regard to educating men about rape.
As for your defence of Megan Carpentier position usually the article as the only source you are completely correct. However, I think that her alarming suggestion on twitter that the comments were “probably written by rapists” arguably justifies some of those positions later in the thread, after it had become apparent.
sorry bad proof reading again
“As for your defence of Megan Carpentier position usually the article as the only source you are completely correct. ”
should read
“As for your defence of Megan Carpentier’s position using the article as the only source you are completely correct.”
“It was eminently clear that Carpentier wasn’t calling all men rapists or even claiming that all men are potential rapists — so why were so many men pretending that she had?”
I can only offer a guess, but just as society tells girls that they’re dirty and unwholesome to enjoy sex, society also lays the blame for rape squarely on men. It’s only been in recent decades that I’ve seen objections to that idea even being tolerated. I think men are sick of it. Men are sick of being told that their sexuality is disgusting and offensive. That any expression of it is criminal at worst, comedic at best. They’re sick of not being allowed to feel proud of being male. Instead, there’s a constant nagging to not be evil to women, and it’s patronizing to think any adult with a functioning morality needs to be taught that. I think the reason men nowadays are so trigger-happy to pipe up with, ‘Why are rapists and child molesters always shown as male? Why isn’t it classified as rape when a woman rapes a man? Why do we consider prison rape a punchline?’ is because men feel like they’ve spent too long keeping silent. They’ve all thought these kinds of things, noticed that the news and pop culture absolutely will not ask these questions, and once they hear a single voice ask these questions aloud, they want to add their voices too. They want to yell until these issues get public recognition.
Thanks for this piece, Ally. It’s excellent and I agree root and branch with most of it.
I am tempted to say that changing the wording from “victim-blaming” to “responsibility-shifting” is semantics – but then I think semantics are important. Words matter. Names matter. I am torn about this, because I can’t work out whether the potential benefit of getting more people to understand why it is wrong outweighs the need to recognise and name the real suffering victim-blaming/responsibility-shifting causes to victims of rape. “Victim-blaming” is an angry term, but it’s angry for a reason. Up until quite recently victims were widely and openly blamed. I remember the Vicarage Rape in the 80s, where the victim was a teenage virgin and daughter of a vicar, and how that was reported very differently from most rapes. As a young girl, I understood that she was seen as “blameless” in a way that most rape victims were not. Saying “responsibility-shifting” also shifts responsibility from those who say that sort of thing, in that it excuses them from feeling the effect of their words on rape victims.
One of the commenters on the CiF thread said that he had been put off from activism against rape by the tone of responses to him on the thread. I find that argument disingenuous, and I think it ties in with the victim-blaming versus responsibility-shifting point. Should women have to make men feel more comfortable in talking about rape? Should we have to tiptoe around and choose our words carefully to try to bring round to our cause people who seem to be looking for a reason not to support it? Can someone who says “rape is wrong, but someone made me feel bad about what I said, so therefore I won’t do anything to stop it” really be persuaded by a change of tone, or will they just find another reason not to act (because it’s too difficult or too boring or it doesn’t affect them personally)? I honestly don’t know the answer to this, and I tend to the opinion that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar, but I have also seen how effective righteous anger can be. Letting people keep their blinkers (blinders? Those things that you put on horses to make them look straight ahead, whatever they’re called!) on can often mean that they don’t feel they have to change their behaviour. We tell smokers “SMOKING KILLS” in big letters on the side of a fag packet because the direct and brutal wording is proven to be more effective than more circuitous and less scary ways of saying the same thing. Should we say “VICTIM-BLAMING HURTS RAPE VICTIMS” or do you think “RESPONSIBILITY-SHIFTING HURTS RAPE VICTIMS” would be equally or more effective in changing people’s minds? I’d be really interested in your thoughts on this!
I think what Megan Carpentier was trying to say when she said we should educate “men and boys” about rape was that for too long we have concentrated on educating women and girls only and we have focused on what they can/should (oh, that “should” – therein lies a world of hurt) do to avoid being raped (and if that wasn’t her point, it is definitely mine!). She could have made that point more clearly. As I said on the CiF thread, I would like to see more focus on enthusiastic consent, the idea that anything other than a resounding “YES!” is a no. With the commodity model of sex (where women “have” sex and men try to “get” it) the potential for boundaries being pushed or broken is always there because it is a model where for one of us to “win” the other has to “lose”, and we risk hurting each other. I cannot say if I want sex (because I already “have” it and therefore it is not deemed that important to me – this ties in with the fantasy that any woman could have sex if she wanted it because she could always find someone to sleep with her, which is simply not true) and you must use persuasion, tricks and manipulation to get it from me. If we saw sex as something we create together, a performance, a collaborative work of art, rather than a prize that women try to keep and men try to take, we would have a very different way of talking about sex, and by extension a different way of thinking about rape.
Sex is not something men do to women.
Sex is something men and women do together (to say nothing of all the other possible combinations m/m w/w m/w/w/d; your last scentence suggests that you get this to an extent)
“Enthusiastic consent” is patronising to the extreme; if you don’t want sex don’t have sex, so long as you are not with a rapist no sex will be had.
This goes for men and for women.
I am sorry for the dot-points but the more flowing accounts I tried to write kept devolving into expletive ridden piles of smoking vitriol. The “everything but an enthusiastic yes is a no” labels my lover a rapist which fires me right up. My partner shows me the respect of taking me at my word and I expect no bloody less.
Yes means yes, no means no and I’ve got no time for anyone who wants to blur that line in either direction.
Hi C_R – thanks so much for this comment.
I think the think about victim-blaming vs responsibility-shifting isn’t about softening the message or using honey vs vinegar, so much as describing the phenomenon accurately, in a way that people are more likely to understand.
Completely agree with you about the enthusiastic consent thing though. So much of our cultural baggage around sex is tied up in the seducer / seduced model, language of conquest and all of that. It’s why I think Jaclyn Friedman’s stuff with Yes Means Yes is the most useful contribution from the debate from the feminist flank we’ve had in years.
This is an excellently thought out piece and I completely agree with the discussion of blame-shifting. The comments you reference, the one by the vicar in particular, are truly upsetting to find in public discourse.
I think that what seems obvious to many of us that “anything other than an enthusiastic yes is a no” is something that not all of the posters on the cif thread seem to understand. That is deeply worrying.
I do have deep reservations about your use of gherkin girl’s experiences as verification for the reddit comments though. The comments could easily have been written by a person who had heavily fantasised about rape but never gone through with it, for example. There are numerous other ways in which non-perpretrators could have created believable stories. This is the main reason why I felt that vindicating these people in mainstream journalism was the wrong thing to do. They seemed to be deriving elicit please from their almost fan-fictiony stories which have now been given a wider readership. It left a very sour taste in the mouth. I’m worried that it weakened the stance of an otherwise very thought provoking and strong article by Megan Carpentier.
On another note, do you have any opinion on Megan Carpentier’s recent tweet that the comments on her article were “probably written by rapists”? It really saddened me, and I felt it was enormously insulting to other rape survivors and the non-perpetrators she was accusing. I also felt that it damaged the credibility of her viewpoint.
Hi Martin, welcome. I should clarify, I don’t think gherkingirl’s reaction has any impact upon whether or not the confession was real. My point is that even if it wasn’t it had had real value. (although as it happens, that Reddit post in particular is the one I’m most convinced about)
I thought Megan’s tweet about the comments was idiotic and offensive, and told her so on twitter at the time.
Not “deriving elicit please” I mean “deriving titillation” or something to that effect. I’m sorry about the poor proof reading.
ally I thought your comment at cif assumed ‘rapists’ are always men and victims are always ‘women’.
I am a bit sick of feminist viewpoints always having the main stage in the Guardian and maybe reddit partly is how it is because many men do not have a voice in the mainstream media /culture.
as for what you said about getting turned on by accounts of rape, I most certainly do, whether they are real or fictional. And feminists must do too as they are the ones writing detailed accounts of sexual assault all over the blogosphere.
QRG
Hi QRG
I thought your comment at cif assumed ‘rapists’ are always men and victims are always ‘women’.
Which comment? I certainly didn’t intend to suggest that and I don’t believe it. On that thread I certainly pointed out that there was at least one post on the Reddit from a woman admitting to raping (ie forced penetration) a man.
I am a bit sick of feminist viewpoints always having the main stage in the Guardian and maybe reddit partly is how it is because many men do not have a voice in the mainstream media /culture.
You jest surely. I agree that men’s perspective on issues of gender, sexuality etc are marginalised and rare, but it’s a bit of a stretch to say men don’t have a voice in the mainstream media to say the least. On every topic except gender and sex, male voices completely dominate MSM.
as for what you said about getting turned on by accounts of rape, I most certainly do, whether they are real or fictional. And feminists must do too as they are the ones writing detailed accounts of sexual assault all over the blogosphere.
people are free to get turned on by whatever turns them on, but I do think we should draw a distinction between content written or produced for that purpose, and content written or produced to shed light on something like rape and sexual violence. If someone has already been victimised by sexual violence, I think it is doubly exploitative if their experience is being turned into wank fodder for strangers.
To an extent you can’t prescribe whether or not that will happen. There will be people turned on by descriptions of post mortems in pathology textbooks, doesn’t mean we should ban those books.
But I think it is an issue we should be conscious of, at least.
As for feminists being turned on by rape, that’s a bit trollish, isn’t it? You know full well there are all sorts of reasons someone might be become involved in the issue that don’t involve being sexually aroused.
I’ve been accused by feminists of only writing about these topics because I get off on it. It’s insulting and annoying and – hand on heart – untrue. If I think they are out of order saying it to me, it is every bit as out of order for you to say it to them.
Ally are you suggesting I am ‘trolling’ i.e. not meaning what I say?
really?
haha. I guess I was suggesting you were maybe being slightly mischievous and provocative. hence the “…ish”
ally said: ‘I agree that men’s perspective on issues of gender, sexuality etc are marginalised and rare’
and this is an issue about gender and sexuality so men’s perspectives are marginalised and rare so women’s dominate the ‘debate’. My point stands.
as for sexual thrills I take mine where I can find them. If feminists are more pure than me then so be it. I’d rather be a whore than a Guardian wimminz columnist.
QRG, I’m not sure if you are make or female and what kind of rape you say you get turned on by reading about.
I can’t speak for all other women, but I can assure you I do not get turned on reading accounts of rape, I find them really quite profoundly unsettling on a level that feels pretty primal. Bad enough if the rape is not a real one, however if I’m reading about a real rape and it’s detailed enough (ie. not very) I find I put myself in the victim’s shoes and experience repulsive, cloying depression and impotent fury. That doesn’t leave much space for feeling turned on.
Every time I see/hear the word, rape used in conversation (by men) I experience a little physical jolt and a momentary loss of clear thought, as adrenaline empties into my system, a really unpleasant feeling in case you think that sounds thrilling, and involuntary in case you thinks it’s self-indulgent. That feeling ramps up depending on the context of the speaker and conversation, Daniel Tosh so far holding top prize for nausea-inducement. When I google ‘Ally Fogg’ to get to this website, and one of the top results is about taxi drivers and rape, I feel the disorientation every time, and circumvent the link.
It would be relatively straightforward to untangle your theory that if a feminist/woman is not turned on by rape, she’s prudish and there’s something wrong with her. And that she’s probably lying to herself. I’m sure you can join those dots too.
I would suggest that it’s easier to dissociate ourselves from the suffering of people who are not like us, and dissociation is necessary if yoou are to superimpose different emotions on to their situation to the ones they are actually experiencing. I think this is why you will find that men are able to fantasise about rape much more easily than women. Why the misogynist and torture porn genres become ever more extreme and popular with male audiences and ever more frightening for female ones. Few women have any motivation to think about rape more than they already have to, and little ability to regard it as entertainment or fantasy.
On ‘victim-blaming.’
The people issuing these opinions don’t intend to blame the victim, and I’m sure it doesn’t feel like that as they say the words. Consequently they become defensive and angry when it is suggested that they’ve done it.
Which is why I think the words “the rapist sympathiser” would be more to the point. I see no reason for sympathising with ignorance and cruelty.
When Cath Elliott wrote in January 2009………:
Taken in Handers practise what they call “consensual non-consent”, which basically boils down to physical and sexual chastisement, up to and including rape, as punishment for the woman’s transgressions. It apparently doesn’t matter if she screams and cries throughout her ordeal, no amount of pleading is going to make the “punishment” stop: by dint of the fact that she’s in the relationship in the first place she’s deemed to have consented to any mistreatment and abuse her husband doles out. I’m not providing a link to the article, but any movement that tries to make a case for “when rape is a gift”, deserves nothing but contempt, and not just from feminists.
……… there was no end of men and sadly some women who posted that they found nothing wrong with “consensual non-consent” and a lot to recommend it.
well, more accurately there were a lot of people saying that if people want to consent to a 24/7 BDSM lifestyle it was their own choice and none of Cath’s business.
That wasn’t really Cath’s finest moment, as I recall.
That wasn’t really Cath’s finest moment, as I recall.
Well more accurately that seems to me, given the passage I quoted from the article, to be shifting responsibility from some of the BTL posters to the ATL writer.
Some of the comments, as you point out, were defending the practice of “Bondage and Discipline, Sadism and Masochism” and implying, with no concern for the feelings of those who might actually have been raped, that there was some similarlity between pretending to rape and be raped as part of a sex game, and actually raping and being raped. I can imagine the genuine rapist taunting his victim with comments like - “this is only BDSM which lots of women like – just lighten up and enjoy it”.
The article was about the way that the act of rape is also diminished in its severity by it’s use in a “consensual non-consent” situation, where in the paragraph I quote, it was less about sex and almost exclusively about men exerting power and control over women, ie the main motive of the male rapist.
Well more accurately that seems to me, given the passage I quoted from the article, to be shifting responsibility from some of the BTL posters to the ATL writer.
That’s a ridiculous analogy in this context. Are you suggesting an author is not responsible for what he or she writes? If s/he significantly misrepresents the subjects of the article and gets called on it, that is somehow equivalent to responsibility for rape? Catch yourself on.
Some of the comments, as you point out, were defending the practice of “Bondage and Discipline, Sadism and Masochism” and implying, with no concern for the feelings of those who might actually have been raped, that there was some similarlity between pretending to rape and be raped as part of a sex game
In fact it was the precise opposite. It was Cath who was refusing to recognise the distinction between consenting BDSM lifestyles and abusive sexual assaults. That was one of the main problems with the article, and you’re making the same mistake now.
I was just reading this post (and comments) at ‘yes means yes blog’ and I thought it seemed apt.
http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2010/03/24/talking-past-each-other/
Especially about the fact (which i had previously not known), that most rapes are committed by a small number of people who are concious ‘predators’ and don’t result from lack of communication etc.
You have to read the comments aswell mostly by sam (who i think is a commenter at Clarice thorn’s blog?) and thorn herself.
They talk about why men are ‘defensive’ and say (in the study she sites) that some rapes happen because of the ambiguity of communication around sex etc.
According to the figures she quotes 4 or 5% of men commit 90% of rapes. Well even though these men (‘seven or eight out of nine’) do not commit rape, they all talk about rape stemming from ambiguity.
they discuss in the comments section that the men are defensive (talking about ambiguity) because of false accusations of rape ie ‘I must cover my ass’ and sam makes some interesting philosophical points about ‘male sexuality’. But I think you could conjecture an additional reason.
The way rape is presented to young men as if it’s not done by a very small subset but ‘men’ in general would make them develop this defensive ‘ambiguity’ narrative.
I would add that educating men and boys about rape would be a good idea but (if those studies are to be believed) I don’t think they need much more than European style sex and relationship education. And then around rape, we could speculate that the main narrative would be to tell boys these people (rapists) are very few and ‘you’ are not like them, you should report them when you do find something suspicious even if it’s one of your friends. Also if the CDC numbers are true and a lot of men are raped by women then the same should be taught to women and girls.
for QRG, there is an ask reddit on men who were sexually assaulted
here.
http://www.reddit.com/r/self/comments/x9vwn/what_sexual_assault_is_like_if_youre_male/
And an ‘ask me anything’ request with a convicted female rapist that has some interesting stuff in but you have to dig around.
here
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/x8r7j/iama_request_a_woman_convicted_of_rape/
(also you may also want to look at ladybonersgw for your research of metrosexuals ;] )
[...] Ally Fogg has written about the appropriateness of the term “victim blaming” when women are raped and has instead proposed something like ‘responsibility-shifting.’ [...]
If we added sex/gender to the hate crime legislation (for a reason I cannot fathom, it is excluded), then it would allow us to identify a proportion of violent attacks by men on women as hate crimes. We would then stop seeking explanations for them in the victims’ behaviour.
Has the Question Time vicar ever asked whether people wearing religious clothing are inviting that kind of issue if they are victims of religious hate crimes? Are people as likely to wonder how much black or brown skin was on show when somebody is targeted for their race, as they are to wonder how much female skin was on show when a woman is targeted for her sex?
A change in the law often heralds a change in public consciousness, as happened with the marital rape laws. If we recognised in law that rape is a form of sex discrimination not a generic attack on vulnerability then I suspect that we would draw a clearer line in the sand between the perpetrator and the victim, between sexual and sexist.
“The Reddit thread found none of the respondents talking of their victims flaunting their sexuality with miniskirts and boob-tubes, dancing naked on pool tables or shamelessly prick-teasing their attackers according to stereotype.
… Every one described himself as being in control of his actions, making a conscious decision to rape. ”
It’s obvious this is the case: how many lap-dancers get raped whilst performing, conversely how many prostitutes do?
The difference? Witnesses and potential social disapproval.
If rapists (or men) were unable to control their sexual urges around sexual provocation then we would see it happening all the time in front of us in all kinds of situations, but we don’t. It happens when the rapist has full control of himself, his environment and his victim. it would also be a good argument for imposing all kinds of restrictions on their civil rights.
The high rates of sexual harassment and rape in the Middle East and other conservative cultures should be testament enough to how little clothing has to do with it.
Women get raped, children get raped, babies get raped, men get raped, animals get raped. For some reason, it’s only women who are supposed to take precautions against it and get blamed for being reckless/culpable if they don’t.
We don’t accuse a landlord who markets his alcohol of being reckless or culpable if somebody doesn’t leave his bar when he tells them to, but instead stays and smashes the place up. We don’t accuse men of being culpable or reckless if they are homosexually raped.
Likewise, we don’t wonder aloud whether a victim of mugging is making it up, or perhaps gave the impression they meant to give their wallet away to that man in the street, or if they have injuries just liked rough conversation. We tend to believe them.
Why? Obviously because of who made up the rules.
Men aren’t supposed to take precautions against rape as the common belief is that they can’t be raped. They are dismissed with statements like “That wasn’t rape”, “You must’ve wanted it” and so on.
Sometimes even that is hard to pull off. When that happens it’s clear that many people will assign blame to male rape victims for their rape: as exemplified by this Jezebel article: http://jezebel.com/5901998/german-woman-tries-to-hold-sexhausted-man-prisoner-in-her-apartment and in all mainstream media articles I read about this case (and the followup case where the woman raped another man just a few days later).
I’ve been asked why I didn’t just push her off.
” We don’t accuse men of being culpable or reckless if they are homosexually raped.”
Are you really saying that no-one blames the rape happening to prison inmates on the inmate themselves (for doing the crime and getting in jail in the first place)?
Before talking about experiences and attitudes towards male rape victims I suggest you educate yourself a bit more on the subject.
Tamen
Men aren’t supposed to take precautions against rape as the common belief is that they can’t be raped.
Well this one does who hasn’t been raped but has been beaten unconscious and robbed.
They are dismissed with statements like “That wasn’t rape”, “You must’ve wanted it” and so on.
You clearly don’t read the Guardian’s Comment is Free as any article on rape inevitably attracts poster complaining, “what about the men”. Which is rather out of order given that rape almost exclusively, is committed by men, whether they’re raping women or other men.
And men in prison who are raped and men in war who are raped, are raped by men, not women.
Unless that is, having educated yourself on this subject you can provide some evidence about men being raped by women.
Tamen, I can only apologise for the comment by Bitethehand above. I always assume anyone disclosing or describing their own sexual abuse here is being truthful and you’re under no obligation to justify yourself to anyone.
If you ask me to I’ll happily delete the post concerned if you request it, otherwise I’ll follow my general policy of letting people hang themselves by their own words.
Thanks for your contributions.
Ally: No need to delete Bitethehand’s comment. Your general policy is exactly why I bother to challenge such positions.
Bitethehand: You are pretty absolute when you state that it’s men who rape men in war and in prison. You modify it slightly with the statement: “Rape almost exclusively, is committed by men, whether they’re raping women or other men.”
But it is not almost exclusively men who rape.
The Prison Rape Elimination Act of 2003 states that the Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) collect data on prison rape.
Let’s look at what they found for juvenile institutions ( http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/svjfry09.pdf ):
“About 2.6% of youth (700 nationwide) reported an incident
involving another youth, and 10.3% (2,730) reported an incident
involving facility staff.”
“About 4.3% of youth (1,150) reported having sex or other sexual
contact with facility staff as a result of some type of force”
“Approximately 95% of all youth reporting staff sexual misconduct
said they had been victimized by female staff. In 2008,
42% of staff in state juvenile facilities were female.”
Of male victims of sexual abuse by force by staff 86.1% reported a female staff as perpetrator. See table 11 page 13 in above linked report from BJS.
Then let’s look at BJS report on sexual violence in jails and prisons ( http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/svpjri0809.pdf ):
Contrary to common belief the most common victimization by men in prisons and jails are not inmate-on-inmate victimization, but rather what the BJS misleadingly calls “staff sexual misconduct”:
Inmate-on-inmate: 33.929 victims
Staff sexual miconduct: 53.455 victims – 64-69% of these reported a female perpetrator. An additional 16-17% reported both female and male perpetrators.
(I operated with a range since BSJ reported one number for prison and the other for jail – I didn’t take the time to calculate the exact percentage, but it is somewhere between the two numbers I’ve quoted).
For female inmates it’s the opposite: the majority of victims were victims of inmate-on-inmate rather than of “staff sexual misconduct”:
7.797 vs. 3.608. Of the 3.608 62-71% reported male perpetrator while the remaining 29-38% were either female perpetrarors or both male and female perpetrators. Given that the majority of institutions are gender segregated – only 4 of the surveyed institutions where women were measured were co-ed institutions and those were not outliers in the rate of inmate-on-inmate victims – it seems likely that the majority of perpetrators of sexual assault, sexual violence and sexual rape of female inmates are women. Yet, when people point out that female inmates are suffering from sexual abuse at a higher rate than male inmates it’s never acknowledged that it’s women who perpetrate the major part of this abuse.
And then finally we have the NISVS 2010 Report form CDC which states that in 2010 a very close to equal number of men and women (1.1% for each gender) have been victims of unconsentual sex (which is the definition of rape I adhere to even though CDC did not) or an attempt thereof. 79.8% of male victims report a female perpetrator.
Lifetime numbers show more female victims than male victims, but in 2010 men and women were equally at risk for being a victim of rape or rape attempt.
You also mentioned in war:
A paper published in the Journal of the American Medical Association (http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=186342) found the following:
“Women reported to have perpetrated conflict-related sexual violence in 41.1% (95% CI, 25.6%-56.6%; n = 54/148) of female cases and 10.0% (95% CI, 1.5%-18.4%; n = 8/66) of male cases.”
And here is a study looking at sexual initiation tactics among female college students ( http://www.ejhs.org/volume7/Anderson/text.html ):
“Survey respondents were 272, mostly white women students with a mean age of 26 years.[...]
The use of physical force tactics is an unusual behavior in women; only 12% of the respondents reported ever using any type of force strategy while 43% reported using a coercion strategy and 92% reported using a seduction strategy to initiate sex. [...]”
12% said they had used force to initiate sex, 43% said they had used some form of coercion to initiate sex. These are women.
Now, Bitethehand, based on your previous comments I don’t really expect you to give a crap about this so this comment is more to the benefit for others.
Tamen
We know relatively little about the role of women as perpetrators of sexual abuse-irrespective of whether the victims are men,women or children.But i would agree that men who’re sexually abused by women may well have even greater problems being believed than men who’re sexually abused by other men.Plus where would they go for help and help?
Less than 10% of convicted paedophiles are women .There is however some research which suggests that up to 25% of all paedophiles could be women but that as women are more likely than men to slip under the radar they’re more likely to get away with it than men. And as far as women sexually abusing other women i have absolutely no idea how common that is. I may be wrong but i think women may be more likely to set up other women to be raped by men than actually abuse them themselves.I only say that because i’ve heard of many cases of the former happening and very few of the latter so it’s nothing more than a gut feeling.
Men being raped or sexually abused by women can be the stuff of fantasies for many men. However as with male victims of dv and male victims of bullying by female bosses in the workplace those who complain may well be disbelieved And if believed may be viewed as being lacking in the masculinity department for not being ”a man” and dealing with it. Our culture is extremely uncomfortable with the idea of male victimhood .And sometimes i think it’s almost more socially and culturally acceptable for abused men and boys to either lash out violently and/or self-destruct than actually talk about their feelings in a way that women and girls perhaps take for granted.
@Tamen
“Men aren’t supposed to take precautions against rape as the common belief is that they can’t be raped. They are dismissed with statements like “That wasn’t rape”, “You must’ve wanted it” and so on.”
I can’t say I have ever heard those kinds of sentiments expressed about a male homosexual rape victim, and I was referring to homosexual rape. I’ve heard it every single time when comment has been invited on a female rape, mind you. Where have you come across them?
“Sometimes even that is hard to pull off. When that happens it’s clear that many people will assign blame to male rape victims for their rape: as exemplified by this Jezebel article: http://jezebel.com/5901998/german-woman-tries-to-hold-sexhausted-man-prisoner-in-her-apartment and in all mainstream media articles I read about this case (and the followup case where the woman raped another man just a few days later).”
Okay firstly, this is not homosexual rape.
Secondly apparently it wasn’t heterosexual rape either, the woman wasn’t charged with rape, she was charged with sexual assault and illegal restraint.
Thirdly, the article doesn’t blame the victim, it questions whether he will be blamed in the same way a woman in that situation might be.
“Are you really saying that no-one blames the rape happening to prison inmates on the inmate themselves (for doing the crime and getting in jail in the first place)?”
People wish all kinds of horrors on criminals. The people who say they hope men in jail get raped will also say they hope they get hanged or burned, etc. It is a generalised wish that physical harm will be done to them to mete out some natural justice for the harm they have caused. Most frequently prison rape is a curse invoked against rapists.
That’s quite different to blaming them for provoking sexual assault in the way that women are blamed: Prisoners may be blamed for harm done to the, because they carry blame as part of their criminal, genuinely blameworthy identity. Women are blamed because they carry blame as part of their sexual (ungenuinely, blameworthy) identity.
I don’t detect any kind of parallel social trend to blame generic men for being sexually assaulted because they have secondary sexual characteristics or are sexual.
“Before talking about experiences and attitudes towards male rape victims I suggest you educate yourself a bit more on the subject.”
Well I can’t talk with any authority on male rape victims’ experiences and haven’t attempted to so I’m not sure what that quip is about. But I can talk with some authority about attitudes, so I’m not sure what that quip was all about either.
@Sarah
We don’t accuse men of being culpable or reckless if they are homosexually raped.
The problem with the issue of male rape is that it’s rarely discussed and when it is it’s usually either joked about or met with disbelief.Consequently we don’t know the full extent of male rape in our society and as the support services for male victims aren’t there where do men go if they have been raped ?
From what i understand around 8% of all reported adult victims of rape are men but i have no idea how they compare with female victims with regard to bringing the perpertrators to justice.Nevertheless assumptions are often made about victims insofar as they must be gay and they may well have
asked for it. And that in itself provides a disincentive for male victims to come forward.For whilst we may as a society be coming more tolerant of homosexuality there is still a stigma attached to it based on the perception that gay men can’t be ”real men”.And that a ”real men” would never allow themselves to be raped.
So in all probability men who’re raped face questioning about their sexuality and if they’re gay an assumption may be made that they enjoyed it .And if they’re straight an assumption may be made that they’re secretly gay.Yet rape is often about power,control and the need to humiliate and degrade the victim and not about sexual attraction and the need to relieve sexual frustration.Which is why many of the men who rape other men are straight .And my understanding is that some of the most violent assaults are committed against gay men who’re in effect being punished for their sexuality.Plus men who rape other men also do so in the knowledge they’re even more likely to get away with it than if they rape women and that in itself is saying something.
ps Because many people wrongly equate male rape with homosexuality any man-gay or straight- who rendered himself drunk and incapable in an area know as meeting place for gay men looking for casual sex may well be viewed by many as being culpable and reckless if he then got raped.
“The other consequence of shifting responsibility is to portray sexual assault as an inevitability, a fact of nature.”
I’ve often thought this, do men like comparing themselves to incognisant wild animals or natural disasters? If this is really the case, then what on earth are we doing letting them walk around unmonitored, voting, etc?
““avoid dressing like sluts.” ”
This one is a bit tricky, because it’s never been clear what dressing like a slut actually means, in some cultures it just involves showing one too many eyes, in others it means having hair extensions. How is one to know what clothing is going to set bells ringing in an observer, some men are turned on by balloons for goodness sake, there’s no accounting for what might trigger an assault. I’ve always been a little confused about what you’re meant to do if you are a woman who works in a job that involves travel between London boroughs, does she change clothes on the tube? And aren’t rapists mobile anyway?
That’s a ridiculous analogy in this context. Are you suggesting an author is not responsible for what he or she writes?
What analogy – I didn’t employ one. I merely implied you had a different interpretation of the article to the writer.
And how exactly does the writer of an article misrepresent her own views? In fact she came BTL three times to post extensive comments defending her article and countering misrepresentations of it. This of course included a mild rebuke aimed in your direction:
“Ally If I’d said anywhere “look out sisters, these mad anti-feminists are threatening to pray over us all and force us all to become Stepford wives just like them” you might have had a point. But I didn’t; the key to my argument was actually no more than: “You probably aren’t aware of this, but these strange groups are out there with these really outdated views of womanhood. This is what I think of them, what do you think?” (the other part of my post that you conveniently ignored). So I’m afraid you stayed up extra late taking the piss out of a big straw woman argument that only existed inside your own head in the first place.”
“Having said that, I also think you’re ignoring something that others have picked up and run with in their posts, and that’s the spread of more extreme versions of evangelical Christianity and other religions that all promote a similar backward looking version of womanhood.”
So those BTL who thought her article was anything to do with consenting adults who role play rape in the privacy of their own homes, were completely wrong – according to the writer.
Ally Fogg (@AllyFogg)
Tamen, I can only apologise for the comment by Bitethehand above. I always assume anyone disclosing or describing their own sexual abuse here is being truthful and you’re under no obligation to justify yourself to anyone.
If you ask me to I’ll happily delete the post concerned if you request it, otherwise I’ll follow my general policy of letting people hang themselves by their own words.
Thanks for your contributions.
I can only apologise for the comment by Bitethehand.
Apologise to Bitethehand – Don’t you think your arrogancy would be breathtaking if it wasn’t so excessive?
You might know more about Tamen’s life than she / he has disclosed here, but there’s nothing in her / his post or my response to indicate anything that would justify your outrage. Well other than your past history as a censor on the Guardian’s Comment is Free, about which you should quite understandable be rather ashamed.
Ally you really are being rather God like here and in your deity role is there anything else in the world you’d like to apologise for?
How about the civil war in Syria or Victoria Pendleton? Is that something you feel responsible for?
So just what was the sexual abuse you claim Tamen was disclosing?
He / she links to a Jezabel article that’s almost too comical to be believed. I can’t imagine even a sexual champion like you would be able to perform as much as the 43 year old partner featured in the story to which Tamen links.
“So just what was the sexual abuse you claim Tamen was disclosing?”
When I talked about how male victims can be blamed for not preventing their rape I also wrote this sentence as an example:
“I’ve been asked why I didn’t just push her off.”
I also wrote another comment on this thread: http://hetpat.wordpress.com/2012/07/30/reddit-rape-and-responsibility-shift/comment-page-1/#comment-346
It would have served you well to re-read my comments on this thread to make sure that you didn’t miss something before declaring that you didn’t.
It is not unsurprising that you proceeded to prove my point that male victims are often denied, blamed and/or ridiculed. And calling a rape victim for partner is rather offensive – as if you didn’t know that.
So what you have accomplished is a bolstering of my original reply to Sarah.
Sorry I need to correct my typo:
Well other than your past history as a censor on the Guardian’s Comment is Free, about which you should quite understandably be rather ashamed.
And so you should Ally, it was a most disgraceful episode in your exemplary history on CiF.
Testing
Tamen
Bitethehand: You are pretty absolute when you state that it’s men who rape men in war and in prison. You modify it slightly with the statement: “Rape almost exclusively, is committed by men, whether they’re raping women or other men.”
But it is not almost exclusively men who rape.
Your evidence refers to incidents, other sexual contact, sexual misconduct, sexual abuse, sexual violence, sexual assault, conflict-related sexual violence and sexual initiation, but you provide no figures for actual rape of men by women.
And some of the figures you do quote are tiny compared to the actual number of women who are raped.
In this report which I understand is considered to be one of the best and most accurate:
Extrapolating this incidence rate to the population of Metro Boston reveals the stark disparity between “official” rape statistics and the reality of sexual violence. In 1998, there were 1,687 rapes reported in all of Massachusetts, and 526 arrests were made. That same year, among the approximately 1.75 million women in the Boston Metro area, there were actually 15,225 rapes. (of women)
from “The Undetected Rapist” by David Lisak, Ph.D. University of Massachusetts Boston
NISVS 2010 Report from CDC ( http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/NISVS_Report2010-a.pdf ) page 18-19 table 2.1 and 2.2:
Women having been raped* Last 12 months: 1.1% (1,270,000)
Men having been made to penetrate someone else* Last 12 months: 1.1% (1,267,000)
page 24:
98.1% of raped women reported a male perpetrator.
79.2% of men made to penetrate someone else reported a female perpetrator.
* Definitions for rape and “being made to penetrate someone else” are on page 17.
I am predicting that you’ll either a) point out that the lifetime prevalency show a higher rate of female victims (18.3% vs 4.8%) rather than to deal with the last 12 months prevalency numbers or b) argue that the CDC definition of “being made to penetrate someone else” does not constitute rape which would mean an argument that physically forcing a man’s penis into one’s mouth, vagina or anus without consent is not rape or that putting a sleeping or passed-out man’s penis into one’s mouth, vagina or anus without any consent is not rape.
But do men feel the same way about being forced to penetrate as women feel about being forcibly penetrated? Are we talking about the crime here or are we borrowing terminology?
…”same”…
“But do men feel the same way about being forced to penetrate as women feel about being forcibly penetrated? ”
Do you realise how goddamn scary you are? Sitting their, a woman, specualting how if a woman were to force herself on a man it wouldn’t reaaaalllllllly be rape, because that’s just terminology that’s been borrowed.
You know those people who ask if the rape of a sex worker should be taken as seriously as the rape of a “normal” woman because she’s used to having sex with lots of strange men she doesn’t even like? That’s you. You are one of them. You are a rape apologist.
So yes, in the same way as the crime is rape not theft if a man forces himeself on a female sex worker, the crime is rape if a woman forces herself on a man.
PS You really should aplologise to Tamen, because, you know, humanity.
“But do men feel the same way about being forced to penetrate as women feel about being forcibly penetrated? Are we talking about the crime here or are we borrowing terminology?”
No two survivors of sexual assault react the same way. Some female victims are seriously damaged, emotionally and psychologically, for the rest of their lives. Some rationalise it, recover and cope well.
The exact same is true of sexual assault of men. Some are irrevocably damaged by the experience, some not.
I have got no wish to get into a numbers game as to which proportion of each might be more or less damaged to what extent. That’s obscene, in my opinion, to rank suffering in that way. The point is that sympathy and understanding are not rationed, and it in no way diminishes the suffering and experience of female sexual assault victims to acknowledge that the sexual assault of men by women can also be a grievoiusly damaging crime.
The question you ask does remind me strongly of the Kenneth Clarke-style approach to rape of women – that some rapes are “obviously” more serious than others. It’s a very dangerous and offensive line.
@Jared
“Do you realise how goddamn scary you are? Sitting their, a woman, specualting how if a woman were to force herself on a man it wouldn’t reaaaalllllllly be rape, because that’s just terminology that’s been borrowed.”
Speculation isn’t scary Jared, don’t be melodramatic.
If you find the concept that scary, then take it up with parliament because forcing somebody to penetrate you is legally *not* rape. So somebody has already speculated it all the way to the courts.
“You know those people who ask if the rape of a sex worker should be taken as seriously as the rape of a “normal” woman because she’s used to having sex with lots of strange men she doesn’t even like? That’s you. You are one of them. You are a rape apologist.”
No it’s not me. I didn’t ask whether it should be taken seriously, you just made that up. I asked if men felt the same way about being forced to penetrate a woman as women feel about being forcibly penetrated. DO they feel raped: violated, laid waste to, burned, ravaged? Or do they feel something else? You haven’t answered that question.
“So yes, in the same way as the crime is rape not theft if a man forces himeself on a female sex worker, the crime is rape if a woman forces herself on a man.”
It’s okay, I get your point. Unfortunately it’s not the one I made,
“PS You really should aplologise to Tamen, because, you know, humanity.”
Apologise for asking a question? A reasonable one. Drop the hysteria, I’m having to be a big girl a deal with people saying they get turned on by reading about real rape stories. That’s what happens in debates and conversations: ideas get shared, some of them uncomfortable. I suggest you apologise for exploiting a situation for 5 minutes of fame.
Sarah, on August 4, 2012 at 12:10 am.
An excellent post and one that not only presents Tamen with the reality of sexual assaults, but also brings into question Ally Fogg’s defence of his visitor.
Sarah writes:
@Tamen
“Men aren’t supposed to take precautions against rape as the common belief is that they can’t be raped. They are dismissed with statements like “That wasn’t rape”, “You must’ve wanted it” and so on.”
I can’t say I have ever heard those kinds of sentiments expressed about a male homosexual rape victim, and I was referring to homosexual rape. I’ve heard it every single time when comment has been invited on a female rape, mind you. Where have you come across them?
Tamen continues:
“Sometimes even that is hard to pull off. When that happens it’s clear that many people will assign blame to male rape victims for their rape: as exemplified by this Jezebel article: http://jezebel.com/5901998/german-woman-tries-to-hold-sexhausted-man-prisoner-in-her-apartment and in all mainstream media articles I read about this case (and the followup case where the woman raped another man just a few days later).”
To which Sarah’s response is:
Okay firstly, this is not homosexual rape.
Secondly apparently it wasn’t heterosexual rape either, the woman wasn’t charged with rape, she was charged with sexual assault and illegal restraint.
Thirdly, the article doesn’t blame the victim, it questions whether he will be blamed in the same way a woman in that situation might be.
Well said Sarah.
And Tamen, and Ally Fogg as host of this site, in defending his visitor seems to be suggesting that rape is a crime committed equally by women and men, which I doubt very much is something Ally will defend.
Unless Ally Fogg you’re going to qualify your defence of Tamen’s peculiar understanding of who it is that gets raped by whom.
And Tamen, and Ally Fogg as host of this site, in defending his visitor seems to be suggesting that rape is a crime committed equally by women and men, which I doubt very much is something Ally will defend.
Nobody has suggested any such thing.
Tamen came on here saying various things, some of which I agreed with more, some less, that’s fine. Along the way he disclosed that he had been sexually assaulted by a woman. He also gave the impression that this was something that had left him, to some extent, traumatised by the experience.
The response from two other commenters was, respectively, a demand for proof that such assaults by women on men even exist, and then secondly a query as to such assaults were in any way equivalent to attacks on women by men.
I’ll respond to the second one in a separate post, but I have to say both reactions I find pretty shameful.
“and then secondly a query as to such assaults were in any way equivalent to attacks on women by men.”
No that is not what I queried.
I queried whether they were equivalents, not whether they were in “any way” equivalent.
Of course there is some equivalence between forcible penetration and forcing to penetrate: both are a crime of sexual assault or coercion, both are a crime of dominance and manipulation, both may involve intimidation or violence, both will most likely be traumatising.
But sexual coercion or assault is not rape. Not legally, not actually.
Nor are men’s feelings about sex, women’s feelings about sex. Not being a man, I can’t accurately assess the difference, but I’ve certainly observed it. But it is a fair query to wonder whether the male experience of coercive sex with a woman is the same as in the other direction. Note, I didn’t say less serious, I said (or rather asked) – was it the same. And if it’s not the same, then we’re dealing with something different.
It is a fair concern that conflating the two crimes will not benefit female or male victims.
@Ally
“No two survivors of sexual assault react the same way. Some female victims are seriously damaged, emotionally and psychologically, for the rest of their lives. Some rationalise it, recover and cope well. ”
No two people will have the same response to GBH, some may cope well, others be devastated, but this doesn’t render GBH analogous to ABH or attempted murder.
“The question you ask does remind me strongly of the Kenneth Clarke-style approach to rape of women – that some rapes are “obviously” more serious than others. It’s a very dangerous and offensive line.”
And Kenneth Clarke faced the same kind of rather hysterical reaction to a serious proposal of introducing graduations of offense into the sexual crime arena the same way we do into every other. If we did that, it might allow us in Britain to prosecute extra sexual crimes as they do in Sweden, rather than fewer.
His turn of phrase was clumsy, and clearly it was only a nascent proposal, but the intention was worth better consideration. I don’t think he ever meant to suggest that there were differences that would be obvious to the casual observer, he surely would have meant that judges would be able to make that assessment.
“And Tamen, and Ally Fogg as host of this site, in defending his visitor seems to be suggesting that rape is a crime committed equally by women and men,”
I am not suggesting that women and men commit rape at an equal rate. I have pointed to a source giving statistics on victmization rates of both men and women and with statistics of the gender of the perpetrators. The statistics states that there is a near parity of rape victimization occurring in 2009 between the genders provided one considers unconsented sex to be rape of the person which did not give consent. It does NOT state that there is a parity in the gender of perpetrators and neither have I suggested there is. I have stated what the NISVS 2010 report said about the gender of perpetrators. 98.x% of female victims of unconsented sex (rape) reports a male perpetrator.
79.x% of male victims of unconsented sex reports a female perpetrator (rape where I live, by the new FBI definition, but apparently not in the UK). That is not equal numbers, but it is enough to point out when people lists rape victims, but exclude male victims of female perpetrators.
You could argue whether unconsented sex is rape or not (which is the only assertion I’ve made which is not stated in the report itself – although it s simply a matter of applying the new FBI definition of rape to the description of categories given in the NISVS 2010 Report on page 17) or you could bring a methodological critique of the NISVS 2010 Report. Or you could continue to conjure stuff out of thin air (asserting I’ve made claims that I didn’t make, asserting that I haven’t replied to a challenge from thesazzajay when that person demonstrably haven’t challenged me), but that is going to take a toll of your credibility.
Paul, you write:
From what i understand around 8% of all reported adult victims of rape are men but i have no idea how they compare with female victims with regard to bringing the perpertrators to justice.
You might be right there Paul, but as I wrote in my earlier post, I suggest most of the rapists were men, not women.
BTH
You might be right there Paul, but as I wrote in my earlier post, I suggest most of the rapists were men, not women.
Agreed,the majority of rapists are men but that doesn’t excuse certain feminists using that to demonise all men.Most men after all aren’t rapists.
However regarding the discussion at hand on this thread there are real problems ascertaining the true extent to which women are both the perpertrators and instigators of sexual abuse- including rape-and irrespective of whether their victims are either men,children or other women..And that isn’t helped by the fact we live in a culture where discussing women as anything other than victims of sexual crime is extremely problematic.For such women are viewed as being an aberration of womanhood whereas the role of being a rapist/abuser is almost seen by some-both traditionalists and feminists- as being a trait that is an integral part of being male .And as such a trait that is in effect simmering under the surface in all men.
Mosrt men and women are not abusive and demonising either sex at any time is wholly unacceptable.However what underpins my views are that if the sexes are supposed to be equal then that must be seen to cut both ways.And part of the equality deal has got to be a recognition that women can be both the instigators and perpetrators of sexual abuse in greater numbers than has hitherto been widely recognized.And whilst i think women are much less likely than men to either rape or sexually abuse others i think we have a double standard in our society which allows female abusers to slip under the radar and get away with it when they do abuse..
If a man,woman or child is either sexually abused by a woman or sexually abused by men at the instigation of a woman where do they go for help and support ? The fact is that as a society it’s an issue we’re extremely reluctant to address.Just as we’re reluctant to acknowlege the extent to which women can subject their partners- both men and women- as well as their children to non-sexual domestic abuse.Seems to me to be much more conveniant all round to view men as primarily being the abusers whilst lumping women and children together as their victims.Yet many male and
female abusers have also been abused themselves whether sexually,emotionally or physically.And women as well as men have played their part in that abuse thus reproducing it from generation to generation.
Sarah
But do men feel the same way about being forced to penetrate as women feel about being forcibly penetrated? Are we talking about the same crime here or are we borrowing terminology?
Exactly Sarah.
I really can’t understand Tamen’s intention here.
Furthermore the police complaints records and conviction records indicate that female rape of men hardly exists.
Maybe Ally can explain.
“I really can’t understand Tamen’s intention here.”
I’m guessing it was to discuss a topic that is of extensive personal interest to him. He possibly also thought it was a space where he could talk about such issues without his experiences being denied or demeaned. I’m genuinely sorry that has not turned out to be true.
“Furthermore the police complaints records and conviction records indicate that female rape of men hardly exists.”
Assuming you’re talking about forced penetration by a woman, to the best of my knowledge the crime is very rarely reported, possibly because it’s quite uncommon to begin with, partly because many men don’t even realise it is a crime, and partly because they don’t believe it will be taken seriously if they do report it.
There is also very little reliable data on prevalence, because it is not something specifically asked about in BCS, for example. However we do know cases happen, because from time to time cases come to light and from time to time women are convicted and prosecuted. There was a fairly explicit example of a man being forced to have sex as part of a coercive violently abusive relationship in the papers the other day
And of course we know that sexual abuse of boys by women is very common. See Michele Elliott’s work on that.
Whether it happens to one man in a hundred or one man in a million doesn’t in any way impact upon how seriously we should consider the crime or how much compassion we should extend to victims. .
Neither am I aware that many men experience this:
The student film, Femme de la Rue, a shocking account of everyday sexist insults in the street, is now at the centre of a political and social storm in Belgium and across its borders. After it was shown on TV and at a screening last week it has become an internet success and triggered a public debate.
Female acquaintances admitted the problem was so bad they never went out in a skirt, avoided the metro, never made eye contact with men, avoid walking certain streets, never wore shorts and in one case, only ever left their house by bike.
Ally, you say:
There was a fairly explicit example of a man being forced to have sex as part of a coercive violently abusive relationship in the papers the other day
And you refer us to an article in the Daily Mirror that’s nothing to do with rape – indeed it isn’t even mentioned in the article. So you’re really scraping the barrel with that, unless your purpose is to deflect the discussion away from whether women raping men is an everyday occurance, as is men raping women, which we all know is.
As to whether any article in the Mirror involving battered husbands and soap opera “stars” can be believed – for me it’s a big doubt. Seems more like an advert for Coronation Street, whatever that is.
The photograph showing an open wound six weeks after the attack is rather difficult to believe, unless the victim has some specific condition that prevents it healing or it hasn’t been treated and sutured. But the Mirror doesn’t disclose this.
So if you’re saying that some men are violently abused by their female partners, I’ll agree with you. But they are few and far between compared to women who are violently abused by their male partners.
And what exactly what have either to do with women raping men?
From the article:
As for this:
“As to whether any article in the Mirror involving battered husbands and soap opera “stars” can be believed – for me it’s a big doubt.”
Michelle Williamson was convicted in 2009 and sentenced to 7 years for several counts of grievous bodily harm. The judge said:
As for you… confronted with a first-person interview with a victim of domestic abuse, complete with photos, details of the offence committed and the sentence given and the names and hometowns of the offender and victim and photos of the injuries – your reaction STILL is to disbelieve the victim?
You really are a vile piece of work.
Ally Fogg, there was a time when I respected you as an intellectual, in fact I still do, but not quite as much.
But the idea that you’ve been reduced to quoting from an article about Coronation Street to support someone who seems to be saying that men being raped by women is equivalent to women being raped by men. represents a sad day. Especially as it’s from someone about whom I said in response to kizbot’s challenge, defending you and your reputation:
bitethehand – you seem not to like men who have opinions about feminism… why is that? Are you afraid they are trying to take some kind of power away from you… from feminism?
To which my response was:
“Before I look at the rest of your post, (12:22pm) when I referred to ‘anti-feminist men’ I certainly wasn’t referring to you (AllyF) – quite the opposite. From what I’ve read you (Ally Fogg) place gender equality issues pretty high on your agenda.”
To which kizbot replied at 30 Jan 09, 1:02pm:
“awfully glad you weren’t meaning ally when talking about antifeminists… my misunderstanding…”
And your response today Ally Fogg:
You really are a vile piece of work.
And your view:
As for you… confronted with a first-person interview with a victim of domestic abuse, complete with photos, details of the offence committed and the sentence given and the names and hometowns of the offender and victim and photos of the injuries – your reaction STILL is to disbelieve the victim?
But I don’t disbelieve the victim, (Tamen) I disbelieve that he’s anything to do with being raped by his female partner, about which he’s remarkably silent once challenged by thesazzajay
And Ally, if you’ve never known about men who have a less active sexual appetite compared to their female, or indeed male partner, and that this causes problems in a relationship, then you’re more naive than I thought.
But again what has this got to do with men raping women or women raping men.
And I’m not a vile piece of work according to my mother, 91 year old MrsBitethehand, who says I’m wonderful each week I visit her, and with whom I’ll discuss your problem next time I see her.
The correct advice at this point, BTH, is when in a hole, stop digging. You’re really not doing yourself any favours.
Bitethehand:
By the way, congratulation on not meeting my prediction, you chose the third alternative which I didn’t list: Totally ignoring the NISVS 2010 Report and rather talk about reported rapes. Kind of interesting coming from someone who earlier stated how unreported rapes among women are magnitudes higher than the number which are reported and provide a source for that – yet chooses to only look at police reported rapes as a measure stick to see how many male victims of rape there is. What is good for the goose is clearly not good for the gander.
You’ll have to rephrase this part of the sentence as it makes no sense to me and I’d rather not make assumptions as to what you meant:
“I disbelieve that he’s anything to do with being raped by his female partner”
“…he’s remarkably silent once challenged by thesazzajay”
I am unaware that I’ve been challenged by thesazzajay as I can only find one comment from that moniker on this thread and as far as I can see it doesn’t contain a challenge towards me or anything I’ve said.
As for my intention I just pointed out that thesazzajay and Sarah both completely excluded female-on-male rape when they talked about rape. And I provided a reputable source for the prevalency of female on male rape (NISVS 2010) and stated the clarification that I believe that unconsented sex is rape regardless of the genders of those involved (a view which is shared by criminal law where I live, but not in UK as I understand it).
thesazzajay said the rape problem would be solved when men stop raping – that throws both female and male victims of female rapists under the bus. S/he hasn’t respondent further so what s/he thinks of my point is unknown.
Sarah only included male-on-male rape when talking about male victims and what attitutes society has towards them. Again I pointed out the existence of female-on-male rape and provided a source for prevalency numbers. I also included some examples of how male victims of female perpetrators are treated. I also did address what she called homosexual rape when I pointed out the victim-blaming which occurs towards male prisoners raped by in jail (a majority, but far from all are raped by other male inmates).
Sarah has revealed that she doesn’t think unconsented sex is rape when it’s men who doesn’t consent (with the exception of when there is a male perpetrator) (she implies as much when she ask whether it’s a matter of borrowing terminology). She also asks the question where she wonders if men who had sex they didn’t consent to are as damaged/hurt as women who had sex they didn’t consent to. I know what ramifications I had to deal with, but II won’t speak for others. Does that really have a bearing on the illegality and ethical failure of not obtaining consent before you have sex with someone? She would have to provide some pretty clear proof that male victims of female perpetrators are NOT damaged/hurt/affected by it in order to declare that it’s not a problem. Well, Sarah, I guess we can add another excuse for rape that is levied at men as well (as it is towards women victim of date rape, spousal rape and so on): It’s not really harmful. Just close your eyes and bear it and think of your country.
As for the Jezebel article I’ll quote the bit’s I found problematic (I have reversed the genders to further illustrate my point):
“[A man] refused to let his 43-year-old partner leave the apartment even after they had intercourse “several times,” insisting that she continue to have sex with him, which she did even after her first escape attempt.”
“By all accounts, however, the initial hook-up was consensual and, even after being stopped from leaving, the woman had sex “several more times” with the man who detained her.”
Detaining is physical force, threatening to not let someone leave is a physical threat. Sex coerced under a threat of physical force should not be framed as “continue to have sex”. The need to point out that the initial hook-up was consented to, albeit factual correct, in this context implies that the remaining was consented to as well. The same mechanism is widely recognized as a rape-apology when it’s for instance directed towards female victims of date rape.
You’ll have to rephrase this part of the sentence as it makes no sense to me and I’d rather not make assumptions as to what you meant:
“I disbelieve that he’s anything to do with being raped by his female partner”
Yes of course, my mistake:
“I disbelieve that it’s anything to do with being raped by his female partner.”
The charges appear to be sexual assault and illegal restraint. Not rape.
From the NISVS report
Nearly 1 in 5 women (18.3%) and 1 in 71 men (1.4%) in the United States have been raped at some time in their lives, including completed forced penetration, attempted forced penetration, or alcohol/drug facilitated completed penetration. (p18)
The majority of male rape victims (93.3%) reported only male perpetrators. (p24)
Rape is overwhelmingly a crime committed by men.
Do you mind not putting words in my mouth, Tamen?
“The majority of male rape victims (93.3%) reported only male perpetrators. (p24)
Rape is overwhelmingly a crime committed by men.”
Yes, it says so in the report because “being made to penetrate someone else” is not classified as rape (I assume they went by the old FBI definition of rape) – even when it’s done with use of physical force. That would mean you are going for alternative b). I stronlgy suspected this would be the point where we differ in opinion. Have you read the definitions of rape and of “being made to penetrate someone else” on p.17? What’s the crucial difference between these two which makes one of them rape and the other not in your view?
The new FBI definition of rape which came into effect not long after the NISVS 2010 Report was published would classify being made to penetrate someone else as rape. It’ll be interesting to see how this plays out in the next NISVS Report.
“As for my intention I just pointed out that thesazzajay and Sarah both completely excluded female-on-male rape when they talked about rape. ”
The law excludes it, Tamen. If you want a change in the law to regrade female-on-male sexual assault to rape, then by all means discuss that.
Rather than chucking around wild accusations at posters and people in the media.
Sarah:
I am sorry. I made an assumption influenced by how BiteTheHands quoted you.
I should not have done that.
I did not see your clarification to Ally before I posted my comment above. The threaded comment system here really sucks (sorry Ally).
Let me rephrase it as questions then:
Why didn’t you include female-on-male rape and why the did you put such emphasis on pointing out that you were talking about homosexual rape (male-on-male) I presume? Homosexual rape is also something of a misnomer as research indicates that the majority of male rapist raping other men are heterosexual or bisexual (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/disturbed/201201/male-male-rape)
.
Is it correct of me to assume that this is because you dont’ recognize that a woman for instance physically force a man to have PIV sex with her constitutes rape? What do you think of the new FBI definition then, about the jurisdiction where this is classified as rape by laws?
When I mentioned prisoners as examples of male rape victims who are being blamed for being raped you countered with pointing out that they also get a lot of other ill wishes. Does blaming them for a being raped cease to be blaming them for being raped because they are also blamed for other things? You asked about examples of victims of homosexual rape being blamed. Men in prison are being raped and people think they brought it on themselves. How is that different from when people think a promiscuous woman brought it on herself? Does the people who think the girl in a miniskirt would get a cold negate those who would blame her if she got raped?
Some years ago there was a high profile case where a kidnapper held two kids, one of them for four years. Bill O’Reilly said that the kid didn’t escape because he must’ve liked it there. He must’ve liked it.
http://mediamatters.org/research/2007/01/17/oreilly-abducted-child-liked-his-circumstances/137753
Or we could look to see if there has been done any research on victim blaming for male rape victims. And, yes, there has been some reseach oin this – although not as much as on victim blaming of female victims:
http://idea.library.drexel.edu/bitstream/1860/62/2/lawler_thesis.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19042285
Is that enough to refute your statment “it’s only women who are supposed to take precautions against it[rape] and get blamed for being reckless/culpable if they don’t. “?
Sarah:
“The law excludes it, Tamen. If you want a change in the law to regrade female-on-male sexual assault to rape, then by all means discuss that.”
I don’t know exactly which laws you are referring to as I don’t know where you are located. But such a blanket statement is not true overall:
The law where I live does not make that difference. There are several other places where no such difference is made. For instance the penal law of NY State states that rape in 3rd degree (§130.25 : http://www.slc.edu/offices-services/security/assault/Penal_Law.html ) includes:
“He or she engages in sexual intercourse with another person without such person’s consent where such lack of consent is by reason of some factor other than incapacity to consent.”
I assume then you are living somewhere like for instance the UK where rape is defined as a crime which can only be committed by a man (Sexual Offences Act 2003:
Rape
(1) A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a) he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,
(b) B does not consent to the penetration, and
(c) A does not reasonably believe that B consents.
. )
Are you fine with that definition? The UK law for instance also doesn’t classify a perpetrator penetrating someone with an object without consent as rape. Which in my view is another shortfall of this definition.
Back in sodding pre-mod again.And i have used this e-mail address a number of times here before.I’m beginning to take this personally Ally
Changed yer bloody name though, didn’t you. Mr Agreed?
My post’s just appeared.Maybe i wasn’t in premod after all.Feel free to scrap this post and my 11.55pm post if you want Ally.
No, I had to authorise it. Just did it quickly this time! Looks like it’s a name and email combo they need, not just the email!
Oh i see what i’ve done.For some reason i named myself ”Agreed” hence the premod. Sorry Ally ,my fault !
hehe, anyway, this conversation is a lot more meaningful and a lot more pleasant than the one just above it, so I think I’ll leave it all here.
It’s a bit worrying that i named myself ”Agreed”. Fcuk knows what i was thinking of at the time.Anyways all sorted !
Nite Ally
Coming late to the game, but to the girl who noted she’d been twice raped and wondered if there weren’t something in her that made some men behave a certain way to her: there is study showing that people who have been victims of horrible crime, especially when young, often have a different posture and gait when they walk. Not provocative, nothing most people would notice, but there’s a certain defensiveness to their posture they’re not even aware of and, apparently, their arms and legs don’t move in quite the same smoothly coordinated motion that the average person’s does–and study on predatory sociopaths/psychopaths shows that they can pick up on this immediately to spot a potential victim. No kidding, it was blind study on the matter.
This would in no sense be victim-blaming but it strikes me as potentially important information nonetheless. This is not a joke: “how not to walk like a victim” might actually be helpful lessons for anyone, male or female, to avoid a certain type of predator.
I’ll dig up references if Ally mails me or tweets me and asks me. Don’t have ‘em handy, not going to go looking unless someone’s genuinely interested.
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